Oral History Interview with Abe López,
1998
Interviewee:
Abe López
Interviewer: José Angel
Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D.
Transcribers: Karen
McGee and José Angel Gutiérrez
Date
of Interview: February 26, 1998
Location of
Interview: Amarillo, Texas
Number of Transcript Pages: 45
Cite as: Oral History Interview with Abe López, CMAS 91, Special
Collections, University of Texas at Arlington Libraries.
Abe López
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
All right. We are taping. Today is the 25th of
February.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
26th of February. Thank you. We are in Potter County... |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
...Amarillo. We are
in the offices of District Judge Abe López, 108th District
Court...
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
...Judicial District for the State of Texas. We have gone
over the, the material for the interview, for the archive. So, I believe that
you, you wanted, you started before the tape was on. And you started telling me
about your parents. So, why don't we just start with some biography?
|
| Judge López: |
All right. Well, I, I, I
thought it would be easier if you didn't have to tape it. Well, my biography
was, my parents are, are, of course Hispanic or Mexican-American or
Spanish-American or how ever that word is used anymore. They were both born
here in the United States although my mother was raised, part of
her childhood, in Mexico and came up here as a young child. Born
here, taken there, and then brought back. I really, my, my childhood is really,
I remember it as basically traveling back and forth, sort of doing some type of
migrant work between San Antonio and New Mexico
and, and La Mesa, Texas which is just south of, of
Lubbock. My dad would, was a trucker and he would haul produce
from New Mexico to the markets in San Antonio.
When that season ended, then we would go up, back up to La Mesa,
which is what used to be La Mesa, which is now La Meeesa
[Purposely pronounces the name with an Anglo
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2
twang and stretch.]
And, he would farm here on this farm for a few months and then when that
harvest was in and the summer started up again, we would go right back into
New Mexico and start all over, the process all over again.
Finally, probably when I was in the, in the third or fourth grade he settled
down in La Mesa. He decided that that was what he wanted to do
because he was yanking me and my brother, my younger brother and my, my younger
sister out of school in the middle of the years, the year, the school year and
thought that that was kind of tough on us. So, they opted to go ahead and
settle there in La Mesa. And I went, I, I finished my elementary
schooling there and went through high school. And then went to Texas
Tech and received a Bachelor of Arts in history. And came to
Amarillo in 197... I believe it was either late 1970 or 1971.
And worked as a juvenile probation officer. It was then that I saw... I had a
feel for, for law because I was working continuously with lawyers on a
day-to-day basis, with the attorneys who were appointed to represent some of
the juveniles that I was assigned to; try to supervise. And, and I got
interested in law. And some of the lawyers here locally encouraged me to go to
law school. And I had an acquaintance up in Washington, D. C.
that was attending law school there. And he, I guess, coincidentally, found out
that I was here. We had gone to school together at Tech, I believe.
And, so he encouraged me to go. And they thought the school loans would be
very, very reasonable and they were. So, I was, I was accepted and went to law
school in Washington, D. C. And when I graduated there I came
back to Lubbock and was there for a few months. And then the
local county attorney here at the time, whom I had met some years before I went
to
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3
law school, had been interested in my coming to work for him in
the county attorney's office as a prosecutor. And so I did. And I worked for
him for about three years and then I went to private practice. Also here. And
after the private practice I was hired by a friend of mine who was elected to
the District Attorney's office. And I became one of his prosecutors for about
four years; and, thereafter he made me his first assistant. So, I was first
Assistant in the D. A's. Office for about an, an additional three years. And
then this position sort of came open, so I ran for it and I was elected. It was
before I went to law school that I met my wife, Dottie, and we
have two sons. One is twenty-three years old and the other one is seventeen
years. One was in college up until about a year ago and he dropped out about a
year ago. And that was pretty, pretty frustrating for me. And my younger one is
still in high school. He's a, he's a junior in high school. And that's
basically it. I got elected and I've been here on the bench for nine years. I
just started my ninth year this past January. I've run three times. And I've
run unopposed the last two times except for the time that I ran initially,
which this office was, was filled, filled by another judge that I ran
against.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well, I have a lot of questions. It, it seemed like a pretty fast, a
thousand words or less life story.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Can we get names of parents and
siblings?
|
| Judge López: |
Well,
my mother's name is Guadalupe López. Well, her maiden name was
Guerra. And she married my dad who, his name was
Gregorio López. Everybody in La Mesa knew him
as George López. He was a farmer. On the farm he raised cotton
and sorghum. And we
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4
used to have, probably one of the biggest
gardens in the state of Texas. We had about twenty acres worth
of tomatoes, peppers, cantaloupe, watermelon, corn. We used to grow a lot of
onions. We used to grow all sorts of things over in our garden. And we would
give it out. My parents would give it away to people here in town, friends and
relatives, that would come out to the farm to visit.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
And your brother's
names?
|
| |
My
brother... My younger sister is Esmeralda and her last name is
Reyes. And my younger brother is Hector. He's
married, has a family, lives in Oklahoma City. And my sister
still lives in Lubbock. She lost her husband,
Tony, about a year ago of a brain aneurysm. Just died suddenly. And,
so he left behind three daughters and, and, and a nephew, my nephew and three,
three of my nieces. So....
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Where, where in Mexico is your mother
from?
|
| Judge López: |
You know, I
don't know. And the reason I don't know is because when she was born here. She
was born in, I believe Angelina County and was taken as a child
to Mexico. And she grew up there for a few years, but she was
still a minor child when she came back to the states. And she doesn't know
where it was. She just knows it was somewhere in Mexico. But
all, all my grandparents on her side, they are all gone. So there's no way that
we, that we can find out unless she could possibly remember somehow. There's no
way to find out where, where she was. She doesn't remember.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Any significant
memories from your early school years in La Mesa? That, that,
well, when were you born. Because I have no idea your...
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
But when?
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5
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Well, those are difficult times in the Fifties in
West Texas especially if you were a Mexican American.
|
| |
Well of course, I don't
remember difficult times. I don't really, I didn't really know that I grew up
as a poor person until somebody told me I was. So, we had a very good
childhood. My parents were very good to us, gave us what they could with what
little they had. And had a great childhood. The farm where we lived, of course,
had no indoor facilities, toilets and things of that nature. I, myself, was
delivered on the farm. My, my parents told me that the doctor came out to the
farm and delivered me on the farm. So, whereas with my brother and sister, they
were more into the modern age. They were born in an actual hospital, so....
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So you are the
oldest?
|
| Judge López: |
I am the
oldest.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
I
see. In high school, did you have anything to do with athletics or extra
curricular activities of inter-scholastic league and debate or run for office
or play football or run track?
|
|
|
No, not, not much of that. I played some, I played some football
and that was about it. I never was an.... and, and I was, I think... At one
time I was a member of the Spanish Club. And I don't know, it's been so far
back, I am sure there was something else I would have been a member of. I was
not as active as my sister was. My sister was president of the student council,
I believe, when she was, when she was a, a senior after I left. And she was
pretty, she was a lot more active than I was. I think there was, in a
graduating class of about a hundred and thirty five or a hundred and twenty
five, I believe, we
Page:
6
were about nine Mexicanos in, in, eight or nine
Mexicanos as I recall. Maybe more. I, I don't know. One day I, I just pulled
out.... I happened to run into my annual. And I pulled it out and I started
counting some numbers. And back in those days the, the Mexicanos that were
graduating from high school were really very small as compared, of course, to
our Anglo friends.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
You graduated around '62 or '63? |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
What prompted you or
who instilled in you the desire to go to college and why Tech?
|
| Judge López: |
Well Tech,
of course, is just right around the corner from, from, from where I was born,
where, where I grew up. My parents. They insisted that, that I go to college.
And I insisted that they didn't have the money to send me to college. And they
insisted that well, we will find a way. I had a few teachers, a couple of
teachers, two or three teachers in high school that were very encouraging also
and suggested that I should go. And that I should at least try to go. And, and
so I did. And once I was there, it just, it was just something that I had to
finish.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
What was the extent of your parent's education? |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
At all? It wasn't
second grade or third grade?
|
| Judge
López: |
No. The only education my parents ever received aside from
like religious teachings, you know, you go to Sunday School, catecismo (catechism). My parents went to an English class
to try to learn
Page:
7
English for about, I don't know, maybe a year, a
year and a half or so. And tenian
(they had) English, you know. We called it
mocho . (choppy.)You know, it was just
chopped up. But they, they, they could make themselves understood with anybody
in town they wanted to, to communicate with. And they were kind of self
taught.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
...Brown
Berets in this area. Were you active in any of that or, or the local
organization on the campus?
|
| Judge
López: |
We, we didn't have much of that. Some, a group called the
Brown Berets came in in the late Sixties. But by that time I was
pretty well gone. I had already come to Amarillo and, and it
was, I was working here. But there was some things that were being organized
there. The most activities that we had is, is... As I can remember, we had a
group of Hispanics, Latinos, that we wanted to kind of share our experiences
with some of the local people there in Lubbock. And they had a,
a group called los Tertulianos (name
of an organization that means speakers/conversationalists) there that was kind
of like the party goers. I guess is the way that, that word is translated. But
we did some things that we tried to... We set up some, some voter registration
classes. Had some meetings at one of the local churches where we invited
citizens to come in. And, and we sort of gave them very basic lessons in, in
how local government worked. And how our overall government, federal government
worked. And, and surprisingly we had attendance from a lot of people that came
from
Page:
8
Mexico and some of the locals. And every now and
then, we'd get a pretty nice turnout of people that were interested in those
matters. Just trying to learn so they could fit into the system and, and see
how it worked. But that was probably the extent of any real involvement as far
as any, any things with the Brown Berets or the Chicano Movement or
anything of that nature.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
What prompted you to want to become a juvenile
probation officer or, or is that what you started out with or that's what you
ended up with?
|
| |
No. I needed a job badly. |
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
So, you were a history major? |
| Judge López: |
Yeah. And I was just looking
for a job. And this, this came open. And I am not even sure how I, how I found
out about this job other than I came and interviewed. And I was interviewed,
went back home, and they called me and said that I had, I had the job. So, then
I moved up here.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Your original case load. I guess that must have been in
the, in the what? Early Seventies?
|
| |
Well, yeah, real early. Right at '70 or '71,
somewhere in there.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
OK. What was that case load like in terms of
demographics? Was it mostly Hispanics, Hispanics and Blacks, white, what?
Girls, boys?
|
| Judge López: |
They
had a, they had a policy here. We, we had, we had two Mexicano officers, which
included myself. We had one female officer. And the rest were Anglo male
officers. And the, the tendency was to assign a Mexicano to Mexicanos. And, and
basically the Black, the Black juvenile delinquents were also assigned to
myself and Marion. Marion Gauther was the other officer. And
the female officer received, got all the female juvenile probationers. And
then
Page:
9
the other two fellows got the, the Anglo officers got just the
Anglo juvenile probationers. That was basically, that was that.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
And in terms of
numbers, in terms of offenders, I guess what I am asking is do we have a
greater problem with juvenile delinquency on Hispanics today than we did back
in '70 and '71 or is that a function of the numbers that have increased in this
area?
|
| |
I think it
is just the function of numbers have increased. I, I don't think it's any...
Proportionally I think it's basically the same as it was back then. The case
loads have increased generally overall. And we have more officers now in, in
that department than we did back then. Back then we had six officers and now we
have probably sixteen or seventeen and recently hired two more.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Do you remember an
incident or an experience or an observation of one day where you said "I
am going to be a lawyer, by God?"
|
| Judge López: |
Well, I, I was in a... I took a lot of pride
in, in, in, in trying to really supervise the kids that I was supervising back
in those days. Because if, if, if you lost a kid, you lost him to the
Texas Youth Council. In other words, they were, they were
incarcerated. It was kind of like the little prison of kids, as compared to
the, to the prison system for adults, the, the prison system in the state of
Texas. And my goal was to see that none of my kids were ever
revoked, their probation's revoked, or were sent to, to TYC. But as
hard as you try, you would always lose some; and I lost some. But one I had was
a, a kid that, I don't even think he was Hispanic or Mexicano. He was, he was
just a kid that just had had a lot problems. And his, he of course, had a
lawyer and he really refused to, to admit that was he had done, that what he
had done was wrong. So, he was entitled to a jury trial. And
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10
the
attorneys in that case had me inside the rail where the attorneys sit. I wasn't
a, I wasn't necessarily a witness that took the witness stand to testify. I
wasn't necessarily a part of the audience. I was outside, but they, for some
reason that.... I am not even remember why anymore, but they had me within
where the lawyers were. All.. For, for the defense attorney for... Who was for
the child. And the, the prosecutors who were from the county attorney's office.
They had me inside there for whatever reasons that I don't recall anymore. And
I saw actually firsthand a trial from it's, from it's inception to it's
conclusion. And I really got, felt like the things that they were doing was
something that I could do because it involved dealing with people, which I had
done. I had worked my way through, through Texas Tech working in the
community center and was working at car washes and pumping gas and things of
that nature. So you dealt with people and, and you were dealing with law, which
I thought was very interesting and very fascinating. Why can they do this? And
they can't do that? And vice versa. Those are the things that interested me.
And, and although I had questioned those things before. I think it was that one
trial that really led me to believe that I, I think that I can do this, if I,
if I have the opportunity. And from that time on, I started kind of looking
around and questioning. And then lawyers again, as I indicated earlier, began
to encourage me to do that. So that, I think that would have been the moment
that I decided that I would like to do that.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Who was the buddy that recruited you to,
was it Georgetown Law School?
|
| |
Yeah. George Washington.
Page:
11
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
George Washington?
|
| Judge
López: |
Uh hmm. There were, there was a fellow by the name of
Billson Salinas who was an attorney in
Lubbock.
|
| Judge
López: |
Yes. Salinas.
Billson.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
That's a strange first name.
Billson?
|
|
|
Yeah. Yeah. He's a Mexicano. |
| Judge López: |
And the more, the, the thing that I, that
was really positive about this school is because they had the financing. And it
was just so incredibly cheap. And since I had already married my wife, the
opportunity was there for her to work. So she could work, help me. Put, put my
way through, through... school were just incredibly better than, than anything
here. Her salary, based on the job she had here, as opposed to there was like
more than three times. And, so we had felt that it was something that we could
do financially. And the scariest part was just moving up there without any jobs
except for hers. Because I had lived in California for two or
three months, just kind of being a beach bum, right after college. And I had, I
had traveled before, you know, from, within the United States
some.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
As a
migrant, is that what you mean?
|
| |
No, no, no. This was after, this was after
college.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Where did you go? What are some of the places that you've gone to? |
| Judge López: |
Well, I had, I had been to
New Mexico. I had been to Colorado. I had been to
California, some, some in Oklahoma. Just, just
close by.
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12
Down... I've been down in South Texas
quite a few times. I've traveled to Mexico once or twice.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Just touring or
just vacationing?
|
| |
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. This was in, when I was in, in college when you had a
spring break or something like that. A bunch of guys would get together and go.
But right out of law, right out of college, I actually moved to
California and lived there for about two months.
|
| Judge López: |
In Redondo
Beach. And stayed there for two or three months, I believe. And I said
I was a beach bum. I, I had a small apartment near the beach, but I was working
for, I believe I worked for Rockwell as one of the maintenance guys.
I made sure that all the water came on at the right time on their humongous
lawns. They had lawns that constituted football, you know, four or five
football fields. Just as part of their lawns in front of some of their
buildings. They were just like huge. But I did some of that. And then came back
and decided that I needed to go to work.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well, tell me a little bit about
Dottie. Where did you meet her; why did you decide to marry
her?
|
| |
Well, I met
her here in Amarillo a few months after, a few months after I
moved here in '70, late '70 or '71. And I had moved in with some, some guys
that I... One guy had gone to Tech. And he was rooming with another
fellow that was a friend of his who was from, I believe,
Hartford or, or Dimmitt, somewhere. And they were
looking for a roommate. So, I moved in with them. And then my wife lived down
the, down the apartment complex just a few doors down with some other girls.
And we just kind of met there and initially I met her,
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13
we had gone
out to eat one, one morning at a breakfast. And I went out with my roommates.
And she and her roommates were at this same place having breakfast. And we just
kind of saw each other. And that was, that was when we first met initially. And
then we found out that we lived. I found out that she lived in the same
complex. So we saw each other a few more times. And after several months, we
decided to, to get married. She was kind of a, she was kind of a military brat,
but not necessarily a, a military brat. Her father worked as a civil servant
for the Air Force. And he was transferred from, from base to base as
a base instructor, a fields instructor. And, so she was with him. And, and, so
he wasn't really an enlisted person, but he was working, he worked for the
government as an enlisted person, as a civilian person.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So I guess, well
where was she from or what, what are her, your in-laws; who are they; who are
these people?
|
| Judge López: |
She, she was born in Rantoul, Illinois. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Do you know how to spell that? |
| Judge López: |
R-A-N-T-O-U-L. |
| |
There's a, there's a base
up there where she was born. And she has no brothers and sisters. She has a
half brother, Bill, who lived in California.
And he passed away a year, a couple of years ago. Her dad passed away two years
ago and her mom passed away about ten years ago. So, she's the only person
that's left, you know. It's, it's...
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
What, what are your kid's names?
Page:
14
|
| Judge López: |
My name,
the oldest boy is Andres, Andrew,
Andy. And the youngest is Daniel,
Danny.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
OK. Well, getting back to, to law school,
was it culture shock for you and your wife to show up in, in Washington,
D. C., predominantly Black and, and, and urban, certainly much more
populated than Amarillo or Lubbock together, as
it were?
|
| Judge López: |
No, not
really. It, we, we got, the worst problem I had with D. C. was
the traffic. It was just horrible, horrible traffic. But no, it wasn't a, it
wasn't a shock. I, I, I adjusted pretty quickly to it.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
How about the actual
students, the student body in your college and your peers?
|
| |
There, there were some
strange people there that I had never seen before. There were Jews. I had
never, I had never known a Jew before. And they, they were great people. They
had no questions about who I was. They just accepted you. Because the majority
of the... As I recall, the majority of the students there were, were Jewish
students. And a lot, G. W. [George Washington] was a sort
of a night school for a lot of government employees that were full time
employees with federal government and then worked at night. I mean... went to
school at night to, to, to earn their law degrees. But a lot of the students
were Jewish students. And, and there were a lot of Black students there, too.
But there were no, but they were from like the East Coast. And,
and they wouldn't... They didn't see any differences between as to who I was as
some people, I mean. Some, some of the Jewish students that I met there, we, we
became good
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15
friends. We had, they were just as curious about me as
I was about them. And I learned some about their Jewish faith and their
culture. And, and they learned from me because we used to get together with
some of them. And, and in at least in one particular couple, we grew to be
close. And we, we, we spent a lot of time with each other in, in our home and
their home. And trying their meals and you know, them trying out meals. And
things of that nature, so that was about the only thing that I saw that was
kind of different. Just a different culture that I had not been exposed to
before.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Was
the plan always to come back to Lubbock or to
Amarillo?
|
| Judge
López: |
No. I, I don't know if I had any plans. I, I kind of wanted
to stay in Washington and work there. And I think
Dottie did too. But my family was here. And her mother was still alive
here. Her parents were divorced at that time. And Jack was,
was, I believe Jack was still in Rantoul.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Is that the
father?
|
| |
Yes, uh
huh. Her father. And, so I think it was more having, being close to the family,
the parents that brought us back here. Back to this area anyway.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well, tell me if you
can in, in two kind of statements, what was it like being county attorney, the
prosecutor and district attorney and prosecutor? The comparative nature of
that. And, then, the other part is the interplay of politics; does... The
actual county attorney, the district attorney are elected offices...
|
| Judge López: |
Right.
Page:
16
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
...not the hired
prosecutors. There, there must be some tensions there. Or some, some kind of
relationship of respect where you did not deal with the politics, but you must
recognize the politics?
|
|
|
Well, the, they are two completely and totally different offices.
The county attorney, being a lawyer as you well know, handles misdemeanor cases
here in, in Potter County. And the fellow that was the county
attorney at that time was, he was just an incredibly nice fellow. And I had met
him when I was a juvenile officer. And he was one of those guys that encouraged
me to go to law school. And he had even told me before, he said, "When you
get back, you have a job here. I want to hire you when you get back." And,
and in fact he did.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Were you among the first Mexican Americans or the
first?
|
| Judge López: |
I think I
was the first Hispanic.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Who was this guy's name? |
| |
Kay Knorpp. He was the
county attorney.
|
| Judge
López: |
Kay Knorpp. And as far as I knew, yes. I
was, I was the first as far as I know. And I worked for him about, I believe,
three years. And then I had some friends out in the community that were lawyers
and, and offered me a, a pay raise and more money if I would go work for them
in this law firm in private practice. They would give me a salary. And then I'd
probably have, we had some kind of an agreement that they would pay me
commissions or I would receive commissions
Page:
17
and they would give me
some type of salary also. And I did that. And then when I came back about a
couple of years later, another friend of mine that I had met some time before
by the name of Danny Hill was, ran for office as, as the
district attorney. And politics back in those days were, were pretty, pretty
nasty around here, as far as... And especially with that particular office.
There had been some things that had happened in the past that.... They were,
they had kind of divided the county. But anyhow, Danny ran in,
in a race and, and got elected and several.... And because of the things that
had happened before within that office, when he took office, he just more or
less cleaned house. And, so he was, had lined up some prosecutors to come in
from Houston. And local people that, that he felt that he could
work well with and trust. And he had some people lined up. So, that the minute
he took office, he brought his people in. But he was still short handed as far
as prosecutors. And so, so he started asking, tried to, started recruiting me.
And, and for several, for three or four months I refused. I didn't want to. And
finally he convinced me that I should go prosecute and be in his office. And,
and again as far as I know, I was the first Hispanic to work in that office as
a prosecutor.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
But for now you are in felony court? |
| |
Yeah. I am in felony court, yes sir. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Your personal
observations about the, the nature of the work or the challenge of the work.
Misdemeanors and felonies, or what's at stake? What, what goes on?
|
| Judge López: |
As a prosecutor,
misdemeanors were very simply cases to try because they, there is not that much
at stake. Most of the offenses in cases that you handled were fine only, some
involved jail time. As opposed
Page:
18
to felonies, when I prosecuted
felonies, you would be dealing with people lives. And you are talking about
homicides, robberies, aggravated assaults, sexual assaults, burglaries of your
homes and things of that nature. There were more serious offenses and I took
them more seriously. And, and I thought I prosecuted those cases, when I was
assigned to court by the prosecutor, vigorously. So, I, I feel that I, I was
probably trained, starting from the minute I came to Amarillo to be able to
handle this job. And even though it's, it's, it's more serious, it's like
anything else. The more you do it, the more comfortable you feel in it. But
it's, it's, it's still a very serious position because some of the things that
come through your court that, such as these felonies that we are talking about.
You are only dealing with the people's lives that, that not only affect that
particular individual, but it really protects, also affects the, the immediate
families. And those individuals when they lose their dad or their mom to the
penitentiary for years. And there is minor children involved because that
person went out and killed someone or robbed someone or, or raped someone, you
know, that, those, those are things that are hard to deal with. But you know,
you just kind of try to take it in stride and, and do what you have to do. And
just go on to the next case because for every case you, you get rid of, you
wind up with two or three more.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
How many death penalty cases did you do? |
| |
As a judge or as a
prosecutor?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Prosecutor. |
| Judge López: |
As
a prosecutor I handled, I believe, one. Helped, assisted in one, maybe two. I
think it was just one.
Page:
19
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
How do you feel about that? The death penalty. |
| |
Death penalty? I
have some emotions against the death penalty, but I think that in any given
case, the proper case, it's warranted. As, as a judge, I've sat as a judge in
two death penalty cases. One person is already been executed. And the other one
is pending death row. And his could, could conceivably be completed or
completed within the next year, year or so I would think.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well, we are almost
at the district judge race. What prompted you to switch and become a politician
and say or was it that at all? Did you say I just want to be the judge and if
it takes running, I'll have to do that?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
When, when did that get into your
mind?
|
| |
I, I don't
know. It, it really, it was proposed to me several times. When I was here this,
my, my friend, Kay Knorpp, who was county attorney, he had
some legal problems and he left office. And county commissioners have the
authority to appoint a county, an interim, an interim county attorney or a
regular county attorney until the next election. And when that happened, there
was a vacancy. Some people were appointed and, and those that were decided that
it was time for them to leave. And at one point in time, I was, I had been
offered that position as an assistant county attorney, as, as a county attorney
when I was in the D. A's. office as, as a prosecutor. And I didn't feel like
that was what I wanted to do at that time. I felt safe where I was, as an
assistant prosecutor for, for the D. A's. office, even though it would have
meant more pay. And I would have been head of an office at that time. I just
decided that I didn't want to do that. So,
Page:
20
when I was prosecuting
in the, in the district attorney's office the court that I was assigned to, to
deal with on a day to day basis handled was this very same court that I am
sitting in now. And Judge Ed Nobles was the presiding judge at
that time. And he was, had been the judge here for several years before I came
to the D. A's. office. And I had practiced in his court when I was, when I was
in private practice and even as a county assistant, assistant county attorney I
had practiced in this court. Had some, some cases in this court that, that by
necessity had to be filed through the county attorney's office. So,
Judge Nobles called me in one day and said,
"Listen..." And after I had been prosecuting in, in his court for
about three years. And then I became first assistant and he was still the
judge. And one day he called me down and said, "Look, I, I'm going to
announce my retirement. And the only people that know are my staff and, and my
wife, and a few other close friends. But I need you to know this because I want
you to apply for it. Because this is a Governor's appointment position if there
is a vacancy created. And you need to try to get this position, if at all
possible." Well, of course, that, you know, that, that made me feel pretty
good that he had the confidence in me to, to apply for this job. And, so I
said, "Well, I'll think about it." So, then he made his announcement.
And, of course, lots of people were interested in the job. And lots of people
filed applications with the Governor's office. The governor at that time was
Bill Clements, Governor Clements. So, after,
I think Judge Nobles left office in, I believe, in March and I
went to do, do that office, the position had not been filled. All these months
several people were filing applications. And several lawyers were sending
Page:
21
applications into the Governor's office and they received mine. I had people
come out of the woodwork sending letters on my behalf to the governor. And of
course, Governor Clements was, was a Republican. And he had
made no bones about the fact that if any vacancies throughout the state ever
came up, because this was his second go around in the office, having been
defeated before by, I believe, Mark White, that he would not
appoint any Democrats to any of the offices. And, so I knew that I had, didn't
have much of a chance. But anyhow, I was really surprised that he was kind
enough to send me an invitation to meet with his secretary, the appointment
secretary. And I did, I went to the interview. I flew down to
Austin. And didn't.. I get.. to really interview with the, the
appointment secretary, but I was, I was able to interview with some person
below, below him. And, so I spent probably thirty minutes there with him. And,
and they interviewed me and they said, "OK, we'll kind of take it under
advisement." So, I came back to Amarillo. And he, he gave
the appointment to a fellow that got to be... He and I got to be, you know,
acquaintances. Who was a trust officer at one of the local banks. And had had
for the past eight years, had not been in a court room. Had not done much of
anything. But he, but he was a Republican. And that's what he wanted in
there.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Who
was that?
|
| Judge López: |
A
fellow by the name of, by the name of Gerald Dowl.
|
| |
Yes, uh huh. D-A. Yeah, uh
huh. And so he got the appointment and I, well you know, I just kind of knew
what was going to happen. I wasn't all that disappointed. Although I have to
admit that I kind of
Page:
22
really was. Because I thought I had more
experience than he did. So anyhow, things rocked along for a while. And it just
so happens that when Judge Nobles left this office and
Judge Dowl got the appointment, there were only a few months
left in that particular term. And Judge Dowl was going to have
to run again. And, so I had a lot of people call me and ask me to run. And at
least give the people of Potter County a choice between
Judge Dowl and myself. And as time progressed, we had a lot of
support, got a little bit of money together, not a whole lot. And, so on the
filing deadline, I went in and threw in my application.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
How many Mexican
American voters are there in this county?
|
| Judge López: |
Well, the population is probably about
eighteen percent Hispanic, but probably only about maybe seven or eight percent
are registered voters actually. I would say.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So, is it fairly safe to say that you
weren't elected by Mexican Americans?
|
| |
Well, probably so. I, I would think that for
those that hadn't voted in many years, they went out and voted that particular
time.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
How
about African Americans? How many are there in Potter
County?
|
| Judge López: |
The, the percentages are smaller than that. I'm not exactly sure what they
are, but they are a little bit smaller than, than Hispanic.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So, minority voters
are about ten, eleven percent of the Potter County
population?
|
| |
Probably registered voters, yeah, twelve percent maybe, total. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Now, this... Excuse
me.
|
| Judge López: |
Go ahead.
Page:
23
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
This district, there's three judicial districts here at least, no? One that
covers three counties?
|
|
|
One covers three counties. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
And then yours only covers Potter
County?
|
| |
Potter County. And then three others. And then the other four
also cover Potter and Randall. I'm sorry, the
other three, we cover Potter and Randall.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So, for
election purposes, you are like countywide only?
|
| Judge López: |
Only countywide, yes. Just Potter
County.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
And I, you were the first Mexican American in the
entire Panhandle, probably, in all?
|
| |
As far as I know, yes, uh huh. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Did anyone ever raise
that issue or did, did you have doubts about that, that there might be a
problem?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Can you talk a little bit about it? |
| |
Well you know, it, it was an uphill fight, of
course. It was very difficult for us to raise any money. People would not come
out and support you publicly. It, it, I, I was running against an incumbent who
was a Republican. I was running in a, in a year where President
Bush was running against Dukakis.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So this is '88? |
| Judge López: |
Uh hmm. '88.
Democrats were not really in favor with anyone anywhere in the country at that
time. And it, it was, it was just a situation of where really nobody gave us
much of a chance. It, it was
Page:
24
just a... And there was a lot of
interest in the presidential race that year. All the other district courts and,
and the county courts at law in Potter County and
Randall. And they also just, just these three county district,
they all run on, on governing years. And this court is the only one that runs
in the presidential years. So, I was the only one, I, I was the only guy out
there running for office. And, and it was not an easy job, you know, to, to go
out there and recruit votes from anybody at that time. So, we said well you
know, we are in it, we have filed, and we don't have much money, but we have
got some people that really decided that they wanted to work for us. And we, we
had a handful of about, I don't know, twelve or fourteen, twenty people. Some
did a lot, some did as much as they could. We had a few fund raisers that
people put together, a little dinner here and there. Pay... And we'd pay the
caterers or people would do a potluck dinner for us. And we raised enough money
to at least run a dozen or so TV commercials. That's all we could afford. And
we couldn't afford any, any newspaper advertising at all. We decided, some of
the people that were helping me, decided that the TV commercials would at least
reach everybody possibly whereas the newspaper may, may only reach people in
the south or southwest part of Potter County and not necessarily
on the east side where the Hispanic population is or, or the north side of town
where the, the Black population is. So, we opted to go and spend our money on
TV advertising. And then we did one or two limited letter campaigns sending
letters out which was a total fiasco. We sent out, I don't know how many
hundreds, maybe close to a thousand letters with brochures and pamphlets like
the one I just gave you and a little card asking for a dollar to, or whatever
they
Page:
25
could afford. And we raised probably, we.... I am not sure we
even, we even recovered our costs from, from donor contributions on that. But
there was one, there was one letter that I got from a, a lady... I still have
that letter. It was a senior citizen lady who was, I believe she was like
seventy two or seventy three years old and retired. And the language of the
letter said something like, I am not exactly sure, but, "I am retired., I
am on a limited income, fixed income, social security." She sent me a
dollar because that's all she, she could afford. And so, you know, it all
turned out pretty good.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Did you have Democratic party
opposition?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
OK. Did
he have Republican party opposition?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So, you really just all went through the
motions to get to November?
|
|
|
Uh huh. The primaries, we were just unopposed. And in November,
it was just he and I.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Is this basically Republican country? |
| Judge López: |
It didn't use to be up
until probably, oh I would say twelve years ago, things started changing.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well, that's
'88.
|
| |
'88. Well
yeah, about that time I would say, yeah. A little before that. '88.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
So, did you win
handily or barely?
|
| Judge López: |
I, as I recall the numbers, I won by a little over two thousand votes. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Is, is that a
good margin or, or not as great?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
It was a great
margin?
Page:
26
|
| Judge López: |
Yeah. For, for the race that we ran it was, it was, it was a tremendous
margin spread there.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Why do you think you won? |
| |
Well, for the reasons that are stated in
that pamphlet. But when I came to Amarillo I, I did a lot of
volunteer work. I sort of would go to the YMCA, mental health,
metal retardation, all sorts of things like that. I, I coached Kids
Incorporated. I was on the board at the Wesley Community
Center which is a Methodist organization which provides outreach services
for the Hispanic community. I coached their teams over there. I coached my
team, my son's team, my older boy's team over on my side, in the west side of
town at Abandale Elementary School. So, throughout the years, I
think I've had a lot of exposure. And I really feel that even those people
that, that would not openly, openly support me because maybe of who I was. And
the fact that I was running the Democrat, really told, you know, maybe told us
how they really felt at the ballot box. And because the boxes that were
traditionally Republican boxes, strong Republican boxes, I think we lost three
of them by... I think we lost one box by three votes or five votes. We won the
other one by about three votes. Those, those big boxes more or less canceled
themselves out. But the, the real major Republican box, I lost by, I think,
three hundred votes or something like that, which I expected to lose by a
thousand or more. The Black box went completely and totally for us basically
except for maybe thirty votes or thirty eight votes or something like that. We
got about eleven hundred votes out of that box, too. The Hispanic community all
on the east side and north side and, and west side, east side of
Amarillo, they came in very, very strong. So, I, I was real, I,
I
Page:
27
was real lucky and glad to know that I had the kind of support
that really wasn't visible on the surface. But I think it was just there. And I
think based on the fact that I had been involved in the community whereas my
opponent had not. He didn't have really the, the experience in, in the field,
in the legal field, hadn't for the last eight years, whereas I had. I think
that had a lot of to do with it.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
So, how much money did you end up spending or raising
and spending?
|
| Judge López: |
You
know, I really can't recall any more, but it was somewhere around ten or twelve
thousand. And my opponent had almost three times that much.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
You put money out of
our own pocket?
|
| |
Yeah, we put money out of our own pockets then. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
About how much did
you have to invest?
|
| Judge López: |
I don't remember. But, but what was really curious is after the election, I
got a lot of money. We wound....
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
So, you were able to pay yourself back? |
| |
Yeah. We paid ourselves
back. And we had a surplus. And as a matter of fact, that surplus is still at
the bank in a CD earning interest. So in case we ever have to run again.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Because you've
been unopposed...
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
...since then? |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
All right. Are you run, are you running now? No? |
| Judge López: |
No, I just, we, you know, because I, I am
in...
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
You
are in the middle of your second term?
Page:
28
|
| |
I just started my first year out of my, my
next four years in January.
|
| Judge
López: |
So, I, I run again when the governor, when the presidential
elections come up again.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
OK. Well, did, I don't want to put words in your mouth,
but did I understand you to say that your candidacy increased the voter turnout
in the Mexican American community?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
OK. Were there or are there other Mexican
American elected officials and do you all work in tandem? Did you all meet to
talk about this?
|
| Judge López: |
Oh yes. Uh huh. I, I think that I had the support of every Hispanic leader,
business leader, every, every Hispanic whether they were Republican business
people or Hispanic Republican businessmen or not, I, I think they supported me.
And, and there was some Black leaders, elected leaders. Elijah
Demerson was the Black, our, our county judge at that time. He was a
Democrat and he gave me his support. Morris Overstreet who is
running for the, for Attorney General... Who is now on the Court of
Criminal Appeals. At that time, he was a County Court at Law judge. I met
with him. He gave me his support. Manny Per,
Perez, who is one of our local commissioners, he, he a
commissioner from one of our precincts here. He and I, he worked very hard for
me. Put out signs for me, worked real hard. So, so those are the three
individuals at the time that were minority office holders, elected office
holders that got behind me. And, and I, I mean, I walked, I walked a lot of
miles. I knocked on, I think I knocked on about ninety percent of the doors of
Potter County.
Page:
29
And if I didn't knock on them, my two sons knocked
on them, handed brochures. My wife did. I am even thinking that I had some
relatives come in and knock on doors for me from out of town. And you know, we
had a lot of support. Lubbock.... My, my.... I had a good friend
there by the name of Tomas Garza, who was an attorney in
Lubbock. And my brother-in-law, Tony, my
sister's husband and my sister and some other friends. I think Eliseo
Soliz and some other guys that I know, they, they had a fund raiser
for me in Lubbock that I went to and they had a dinner. We
raised enough money to help us do, you know, a second mail out. It wasn't a
whole lot of money, but it was just the thought, the thought that counted to
us.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Now,
for judicial races, there are special rules that apply to raising money. Can
you talk a little bit about that as to how you are handicapped as opposed to
other politicians?
|
| |
Well, back then we were not. It was pretty well wide open just like any, any
other candidate. Now we are restricted. And we can only raise money within a
certain time frame. For example, I think that if you are running,... And I
can't recall the days right now, the dates. But if you are running in a, in a
primary and if you are opposed, I think you can start raising money like in
January. And then you can raise money up to a certain time. And then you have
to stop and you have to start over again. So, there's only a certain time
frame. And in a, if, if you are just running in, in the General, I think you
can only raise money.... Again there is a time limit that, that the legislature
has set up for us. I, I am not really sure that those dates are. I haven't
looked at it for awhile.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
OK.
Page:
30
|
| Judge López: |
And also the amount of money you can raise.
And if you have, if you are going to raise over like a hundred thousand
dollars, you have to send in some kind of, of.... A waiver saying that you are
going to raise more than that.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
This Black county judge that you talked about, his last
name is Demers?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
How do you spell
that?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
You know, this, this Potter
County is unusual. To elect an Abe López, a
Morris Overstreet, a Demerson, county judge.
Those populations are not evident...
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
....so in a way, it's almost like they are liberals.
How, how do you explain this?
|
| Judge
López: |
I think that we have a lot of people in, in, in
Potter County and Amarillo, in general, that I
think they look at the individual and what their platforms are for the city and
for the county. Because we even had a Hispanic city commission,
commissioner....
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Zeke Navarette? |
| |
Uh huh. He was elected at
large. So he, he wasn't running for any, any particular district or, or
precinct. He, he was elected at large. And, and Zeke was, was
the first Hispanic city commissioner. And, and like they did with me and he did
with me, I did with him when he ran for city commissioner to help him on. We
helped him as much as we could. It, it's one of those deals where it just kind
of got behind
Page:
31
your candidate. And, and just did anything they could
to raise money and, and just garner support for, for, for the candidates.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well, speaking
now about being district judge, what, what's the challenge, what's the
struggle, what's the best thing about it, what's the worst thing about it?
|
| Judge López: |
The worst part about
it is the high rate of crime. And the fact that you see these cases come
through on a daily basis. And it's... And then when you look behind that crime,
you see that it's, that about eighty percent to ninety percent of it is related
in some form or fashion to the use of drugs. And that's what's really scary.
Whether it's... You are either stealing to, money to buy drugs with. Or you are
stealing property to exchange or pawn it off to get money to buy drugs with. Or
steal things to just exchange for drugs. It seems to be the, the thing that is
most, most prevalent in, in the cases that we handle. If you are burglarizing,
breaking into cars or homes, the same thing. It's the... You may get charged
with the burglary, but the underlying problem of that individual is he or she
has a drug problem. And they are just trying to get money for, for drugs or, or
steal property to exchange for drugs. That to me, is the, is the worst. And,
and of course in this business, you don't make everybody happy. One side wins
and one side loses when you are dealing with civil cases. Accidents and job
injuries and things of that nature. And, and some of those things are, by and
far.... I, I don't have much input into those because most of those cases are
tried before a jury. And I think our, our jurors in Potter
County are very, very reasonable people. They, they have, I think they
can see whether or an injury is really an injury or the injury is, is not an
injury. And I think they compensate litigants
Page:
32
based on the facts of
their case whether it's a strong case or not. Whether the injuries are, are
real or not. And I've been around long enough that it's, it's, in private
practice as a prosecutor and, and as a judge to see the cases that I think
merit some, some damages and those that don't. And, and by and far, I think the
juries have been able to read the facts and read them fairly and give those
people that really deserve some money for their injuries the money they deserve
and those that really don't. We do some family law. That's almost as bad
sometimes and maybe even worse than criminal cases because you see families
being torn apart, children being torn apart, who do they live with. Moms
leaving town or daddies leaving town and they don't get to see them anymore.
Dads who don't pay their child support and the mom is trying to struggle,
trying to get by on her salary. And, and can't do it anymore. Having to put
people in jail because they don't pay their child support. There is really very
few things that, that you do here that really are really pleasant, of course as
you well know, as, as an attorney. But every now and then you get some cases
that are just, adoptions, a baby or a young child gets a new set of parents
and, and those are fun and nice.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
So, clearly there is no family law court here in
Potter County yet or in this area, designated as such? You have
to handle all of that?
|
|
|
Yeah. We, we, we have a, Judge Emerson, the
320th is, was, up until, before there was a reorganization, of consolidating
courts instead of having domestic relations courts and district courts. And
Judge Emerson's court was the domestic relations court primarily responsible
for all family law matters. And when they had this reorganization and they made
all those courts just regular district
Page:
33
courts, Judge
Emerson, language in the legislation that changed his court from the
family court or the domestic relations court to, to a district court... He was
still held primarily responsible for all family law matters. But he didn't want
to just do that. He wanted to have his hand in, in civil matters and criminal
matters. So we sort of kind of have an informal agreement between him and the
other courts that he would give us some family law if you wanted it, which I
did. And we would give him some of the civil cases or the criminal law cases
that he could handle just to kind of keep some diversity going in his court.
And I kind of wanted to handle some family law too. Kind of stay up with the
law.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
How
does a, a district judge keep up with all of the different kinds of cases that
come? I know the, the assumption is that if you are a lawyer you know
everything there is to know about the law....
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
....but we know better. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
And, and judges are
not exempt from that either, but I will ask, what do you, what do you do to
keep up with all of this or do you push the lawyers to give you the opposing
sides so that they teach you in a way?
|
| Judge López: |
There was a time when.... If you look at
that stack there behind you and the one over here in this bookcase and all
these stacks right here.... Where I would get these publications and I would
have time to read them.
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34
I would take them home and read at night.
But as you can see, these stacks are stacks that hopefully I will get to some
day. But some of those are from 1996 already and I, I'll never get to read
them. So, you are put in a posture anymore of when you have a particular legal
question arise in a particular case, I just have the afore, first of all, you
pretty well have, have an idea, if, if you have been around long enough, you,
you pretty well have an idea what the theory is. And, and what basis that
theory is being proceeded on. And, but sometimes when the lawyers are, are so
close, you ask them well you know, "I need you to find me some cases in,
in this area and provide me with legal briefs." Which is what I do as a
matter of course now. And when they cite me those cases... I've had them cite
the same case for the same proposition for diametrically opposed sides. And
when they do that, I just pull out and I'll go look at those myself, which I
have here. And I'll pull, pull the case. And I'll read the case once, twice,
sometimes as many as ten times if I, I have to, to see where that case fits in
that particular fact situation so I can make a proper ruling. So, you are
right. You just cannot, I mean, it's just so voluminous anymore. You just can't
keep up with it anymore.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
How much time do you spend a week on all of this? |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Fifty
hours, sixty hours, seventy hours?
|
| Judge
López: |
Uh, probably not sixty hours, but at, at least a good fifty
hours. I come in on weekends sometimes on Saturday mornings when things are
quiet at my house. And I come in and I'll read a couple of hours, two, three
hours. There is times when I come in at night during the week. I spend
probably, on an average, a week, I would say about three hours during the noon
hour. For example, this noon hour, I spent in the office meeting because it's
quiet, the phone doesn't ring
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35
as much, my staff is gone. And, so I
use that time as a quiet time to catch up on my reading.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
What kind of staff do
you get, particularly legal support?
|
| |
We have no, no type of legal support with
district courts in, in the state of Texas. All we get is, is a
court coordinator who answers the phone and schedules hearings for you. We have
a bailiff who is sort of the courtroom security person. And then a court
reporter who takes the proceedings as we hear them in the courtroom, whether
they are trials or not jury matters.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Do you get to pick any of those people or
is that civil service?
|
| Judge
López: |
No, you get to pick those people. You have to post the
position for people that are interested. And then you interview and then you
try to select the person, the person that you feel is best qualified. Dr.
Gutierrez: What's the salary now?
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
For court coordinators it's right about, they just had
a recent pay increase, it's about twenty eight thousand. Court reporters are
about thirty five thousand, pretty close to forty, maybe closer to forty than
thirty five. And the bailiff is at about pretty close to twenty, twenty two
thousand.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
And the
judge?
|
| Judge López: |
I am not
sure that I can tell you that, but it's, it's somewhere between ninety, ninety,
ninety two. We just had a pay increase also that went into effect, I believe in
September.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Is there a differential between the other judges and yourself? |
| |
No, because it's all state
paid. They, they, well, I take that back. Some of the judges that have other
counties, additional counties get, get a little supplement.
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36
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
For
travel?
|
| Judge López: |
Yeah, for
travel. It may be a thousand, two thousand dollars a year more. So, it's a
little higher than, than this position.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Any future position you are interested
in?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Any appointment
you are interested in?
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Any appointment you would turn down? |
| |
Well, I haven't been
offered any yet. So I haven't had a chance to turn any down. I, I am very
comfortable here. I, I like, you know, being... If you can just set aside those
matters that deal with the problems of.... Sometimes it gets very discouraging
here doing what you do. If you can just get by that and just put it aside. And
just go onto the next matter. Because you really can't let those things grate
on you; otherwise, you are just, you're just, you know, you just develop an
ulcer and you go crazy around here. So, if you can get, if you can learn to
handle that situation, I feel comfortable here. I, I think I do good work. And,
and I feel confident that I am doing well. And, and, and that I administer
justice as, as well as I can based on the facts and based on the law that's
presented to me on, on the cases that I, that come before me.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Can poor people get
justice?
|
| Judge López: |
Yeah, I
think so.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Is there a public defender program here or a system of court
appointments?
|
| |
We
have a system of court appointments. The attorneys that, that I appoint to
handle my criminal cases are hand picked by me. I've
Page:
37
known most of
them since I was a prosecutor or I was in private practice. I know their
capabilities. I know their strong points. I know their weak points. and I hand
pick, oftentimes, a particular defense attorney for a particular case that has
a particular problem. For civil matters, we have a Legal, Legal Aid
office that people can go to. We have toyed with the idea of contracting with
private attorneys to, for them to handle the criminal cases, the indigent cases
that come through. That may happen some time in the future. And, of course, we
also appoint lawyers on family cases when there is a possibility that a dad may
go to jail or something like that. We also appoint lawyers as Ad Litems. Ad
Litems for children who may need lawyers. So I, I feel very comfortable with
the quality of legal services that our Ad Litems, our, our attorneys here
provide for us. Not for me, but to the people that I appoint them to. Like when
there is a necessity for a court appointed lawyer.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Switching over to the
last part of the interview. I've only got about five or six questions more. Who
is the most effective political leader in the Mexican American community today
at whatever level?
|
| Judge López: |
You mean statewide or... |
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Whatever level? You can have somebody by and statewide
or nation or local or regional....
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Of course, he's taken
himself out.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Do
you think that's temporary or....?
|
| |
Well, I, I, I, I hate to see him go because I, I
thought he was, I thought was a good public servant. You know, you, you can
really criticize
Page:
38
anybody for, for what they do. And you, again, as
I said earlier, in, in this job you can't please everybody. But I think he did
the best he could with what he had. And, and has done a good job for, for, for
Texas.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Do you agree with him on the Hopwood
decision?
|
| Judge López: |
To some
extent, yes. Yeah.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Do you agree on the attorney fee settlements on the
tobacco case?
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Do you agree with the Oprah Winfrey,
Oprah Winfrey verdict across the street today?
|
| Judge López: |
I am not sure what the verdict was. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
The case got thrown
out.
|
| Judge López: |
I am sure of
the jury. I am sure they had all the facts. And I am sure they did what they,
what they had to do.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
What, what is the most effective or which is the most
effective political organization among the Mexican American community
today?
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well, I've used the word effective. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
I didn't want to pigeonhole because
there's all different kinds of groups out there.
|
| |
I think our Hispanic Chambers
have been very effective because when they go up and, and rub elbows with the
other Hispanic, with other Chambers of Commerce in whatever cities
they are, not only are
Page:
39
they promoting their own businesses, but I
think they were, they are promoting the Hispanic population as a whole. They
are exposing their businesses to the community whereas they might not otherwise
do so. And I think the Anglo community, if they are receptive to the
Hispanic Chamber like they have here in Amarillo, I
think they along in their own ways, help the Hispanic Chamber. So
they have sort of a camaraderie there that they help each other out in, in that
sense. I think it helps the, the Hispanic community as a whole overall.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
I know that
you, in your remarks, you've alluded to relationships with the African American
community here in, in the commun, in town and individuals you've identified as
collaborating with you. But my question is what are the underpinnings of
tension between Blacks and Browns here in Amarillo?
|
| Judge López: |
I don't think there is
any.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Well,
what are the underpinnings of good relations? What's the ingredient to have
good relations and working together?
|
| |
Well, there's, there's been, there's several
facts and, and, and Hispanics have served on certain boards together. I've
served with Blacks and Anglos and other Hispanics on boards together. And by
and far, I, I think that they are looking for a common goal. And that is what's
good for the community overall? And I, I don't think that I've ever seen, since
I've been here, of course, you, you, you are always going to have maybe
something else that arises that might have a tendency to create tensions
between Blacks and Browns. But I don't recall of any instance in the last,
since I've been here since '75, that created that kind of a, a rift between the
Blacks and Browns that, that, that's even worth mentioning. I know that in, in
Los Barrios which is
Page:
40
a
local, very effective Hispanic organization here in town that's comprised of
blue collar workers and, and, and white collar workers, that and it's primarily
Hispanic. That meets in the Hispanic side of town. And that several agencies
come to for advice and consent on matters. That there is some, there is some
Blacks that are involved in that organization and vice versa. So, I think the
relations between Brown and Black in this community are, are good. And I get
calls from, from Black friends that I know. I had one last week. And if I ever
have a question about something that's going on over there, I, I, I have no
problems in picking up the phone and, and, and calling someone like, like
Demerson or an Iris Lawrence or a
Will Hilton, who is one of our Black county commissioners at
the time. I, Iris Lawrence is real active with the
Democratic party. And she's running for, for, for the, for one of
the county commission positions. So, it's, I, I don't see that that's a
problem. And has been, I just don't recall anything being of a serious
nature.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Chicano and Mexicano relations. I am talking about people from Mexico and
people born here. What ought the relations be like and what are they like in
this area?
|
| Judge López: |
I
think they are OK. I think a, I think a few years ago when, when, when people
from Mexico started coming in, they started opening their own businesses. And,
and, and you could see that, that there was some talk around town. And you
could hear it, the rumors and things of that nature. But I think it's been
positive because I know of several local people that have opened up their own
businesses within the last few years. I think for the reason that they said,
"Hey well, these people from Mexico came in. And they opened up a
restaurant or they
Page:
41
opened up a bridal shop or whatever. Why can't
I?" And, and I've seen them open up their own businesses. People that have
been here for, for a long time. And they were not in business before, and now
are. They may have their own Mexican restaurant. And, and I think it's been a
positive deal for everybody.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
What's the most pressing issue facing Mexican-Americans
today?
|
| |
Well, at
one time I would have said, well, the drop out problem. I mean, that has to be
the, by and far, the largest and, and a very, very close second and maybe even
ahead of that is just the, the high pregnancy rate of our Chicana girls,
Mexicana girls. And I think that's in conjunction with the drop out. Well, in,
in that particular gender the, the female drop out, pregnancy, the male just
drop outs.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Two more questions. One, what is leadership? |
| Judge López: |
Well, from my perspective, leadership is
being able to... set some goals... that are needed. And organize some
support... to identify those goals. And, and give people, get that support to
agree with you. This is the goal that needs to be addressed. And some solution
for it. If there is a problem with that particular goal. And if you have to
take the lead, but if there is someone else that wants to lead, let them go
ahead and do it. To me, as, as long as we get there, I don't care who, who
takes you there or who gets you there or how they get you there as long as it's
by legal means. And to me leadership is, is if somebody else wants to take the
credit, you know, go ahead and do it. Let them have it. Don't, don't miss an
opportunity to, to do something positive for the community by trying to, to
wreck it because you are not going to get the credit or you are not going to be
recognized as a person who
Page:
42
got it started, who finished it, or did
all the work and things of that nature.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
What's going to happen in politics here in
the next ten, twenty years in terms of Mexican Americans?
|
| |
Well, with the population
growth as, as, as it continues to explode, I think that if, if citizens
continue to come into this area and become citizens and become knowledgeable in
our system of government that we will probably be in a situation where....My
home town of La Mesa is now, I think, they are about like fifty
fifty. I can envision that happening here in the next ten or twenty years or so
possibly. Maybe not fifty fifty, but pretty close to maybe thirty or thirty
five and blacks, of course, they will be increasing the percentages too. There
will be a lot more Hispanics in this area. A lot more.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
I don't have any
more
|
| Judge López: |
The question
is not whether you are just increasing population. Are they going to be, are
they going to be citizens that, that, that are taking the responsibility of
voting? And, and looking at the issues and making wise, in, independent
decisions that they have to make to make our system continue to work as we know
it today.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
I
don't have any further questions. Is there a comment you want to make or an
area you want to revisit, your childhood or your biography or your career or
your views on the judgeship, anything that you want to add as we close
this?
|
| |
Not other
than there's been a lot of people that, that supported me in my campaign when I
didn't think, you know, we had a chance. The, the funny thing about that is
that I never knew, I never felt that I was going to lose. I always had positive
thoughts about it. But you know,
Page:
43
you never really know. And until
the, until the, until the, the boxes close and, and the election returns came
in and you saw the numbers of the individual boxes, top boxes that you never
thought you could even carry because I think out of, I don't remember, I think
it was twenty, twenty seven boxes or so, I think we won all of them but about
four or five. It, it just made me realize that you know, if, if I could pull
this off, any other Mexicano can or any other Black can. But, but you have to
have the training. You have to know what you are doing. You have to do the
research. You have to understand the issues and before you go out and, and
attempt to do something. Because there are going to be a lot of people that are
going to question you on what your motives are. And, and how does this, how
does all this fit in with what we are trying to do? And if you are not prepared
to answer those questions, you are not going to get the support that you want.
And, so if, if you want to accomplish something, if you want to be a judge over
here, you need some, a good strong educational background. And where do you
start? Well, you start at elementary school. And we try real hard here in
Amarillo to, we have a host program. We have a lot of the
mentoring programs. We try to help our Hispanic community, the little kids to
mentor them and stay away from drugs and get an education. Actively involved in
the Step Up To Success program that Los
Barrios and the Wesley Community Center.... We have
a career day for our middle schools and high school, bringing our kids too. We
have a battery of speakers, thirty, forty speakers, mainly all Hispanic, from
different walks of life that, that operate here in Amarillo. And
it's, it's a very strong united group of individuals that will speak to these
kids
Page:
44
anywhere you want.speak to these kids From lawyering to
insurance, banking. We get them all. Curiously, one of, a couple of years
ago.... And, and at the end of those, of those sessions we ask our students to
fill out a form of what they thought of our speakers. And are there any other
fields that they would be interested in, in learning about. Or firemen. Or
whatever. And we had a little slip of paper that was turned in. Somebody, a
girl, had wanted, was interested in becoming a nun. So, the following year we
had, you know, in the following session, we had some nuns appear and talk to
some people that, you know, some girls that were interested in, in being nuns.
So, you never know what our kids are interested in and, and or maybe, or may be
interested in. So you want to give them an opportunity to, if we can find the
right person that will visit with them. And we, we've had lawyers and bankers
and insurance people, business people that have their own businesses,
restaurant owners. You name it, we've had them at these sessions to speak to
our kids. And I think we do a, I think we do a heck of a job here with the
Alderete's and the, the Salazar's and, and
all these other individuals that volunteer so much of their time to, to try to
keep our kids in school. Because we are continuously fighting this, this drop
out problem. But, but we are not winning. And we need more involvement from our
parents at home. That's where it needs to start. And, and it's just not working
right now.
|
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
Judge, thank you for your generous gift of time. |
| Dr. Gutiérrez: |
This is your archive. Just a reminder that
if you have any, any stuff stuffed away in the garage, under the bed, in boxes
in the attic, send it
Page:
45
to us at UT Arlington. This is
your archive and, and I will give you a form to execute as a deed of gift when
I remember to mail it to you.
|
| Dr.
Gutiérrez: |
Thank you. |
| Judge
López: |
I appreciate that and I, I hope that was a.... |
|
