Maverick Veterans’ Voices: Interview with Mr. Al Ellis

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Interviewee: Mr. Al Ellis

Interviewer: Melissa Gonzales

Date of Interview: April 26, 2013

Location of Interview: Arlington, Texas

Transcriber: Diane Saylors

Special Collections UTA Libraries

GONZALES: This is Melissa Gonzales. Today is Friday, April 26, 2013. I am interviewing Mr. Al Ellis for the first time. This interview is taking place at the University of Texas at Arlington Central Library located in Arlington, Texas. This interview is sponsored by the College of Liberal Arts and is part of the Maverick Veterans' Voices Project. So we'll get started.

GONZALES: Why did you choose to attend Arlington State College, and how did you hear about the school?

ELLIS: It was close to my home in Dallas. At that time it was primarily a commuter school. I couldn't afford to go out-of-state or away from Dallas. The 00:01:00other closest university was SMU, and guess what the rate of tuition there was versus the University of Texas at Arlington-- (laughs) or Arlington State College at that time. And I could continue to work too on the weekends and stuff like that.

GONZALES: So you grew up nearby. Did you participate in ROTC in high school?

ELLIS: I was in ROTC in high school, yeah.

GONZALES: What was your major here at Arlington State College, and did you stick with that major or switch?

ELLIS: No. It was history and I stuck with it the whole way.

GONZALES: Why did you choose history?

ELLIS: At the time my career plan was to make a career of the Army, and so I just needed to get a degree, and I liked history so I chose history.

GONZALES: What were your duties while on the Sam Houston Rifle Drill Team? And in particular, your role as Cadet Corps Commander?

ELLIS: Well, the Jodies or the Sam Houston Rifles, of course, were the nationally 00:02:00famous drill team. When I first got on it, it was just marching. Ultimately I was the commander and so basically you're taking the drill team from place to place, city to city to compete in the competitions. And then my role as a Cadet Corps Commander was to be in charge of the entire Cadet Corps and then do whatever quite honestly the colonels and the Majors that were in charge of us told us to do. (laughs)

GONZALES: And you mentioned Jodies. What does that stand for?

ELLIS: That was the Sam Houston Rifles.

GONZALES: Okay.

ELLIS: Yeah. That was the nickname for the Sam Houston Rifles.

GONZALES: Were there any professors or instructors that significantly influenced you? If so, who were they and why?

ELLIS: I'm sure there were, but I don't remember any names. (Both laugh) There was an old History professor named C. D. Richards, and I won't say that he influenced me, but he made history interesting. He was just funnier than hell and he must've been in his seventies at that time, and I think he lasted even 00:03:00longer after I left. But he just made all history interesting. I mean, he had a good sense of humor.

There was an English teacher. I think her name was Ms. Pyner, and she was probably just the exact opposite of C. D. Richards. She was one of the meanest persons in the whole wide world, but she was a great teacher and she made you work hard, and she probably at that--you know, she had some influence in that if you weren't prepared in her class, you were in trouble. Basically.

GONZALES: Did that prepare you for law school?

ELLIS: Probably did a little bit. You know, just the discipline. Nobody wanted to be in Ms. Pyner's English class, and so when we got assigned to Ms. Pyner's English class, it was like everybody was "Woe is me. What's going to happen? I'm going to flunk out" or something like that. But once you got in there and you 00:04:00realized that she was just a damned good teacher, and so it really wasn't as hard as everybody said it was.

GONZALES: What was your course load like? Were you part-time?

ELLIS: I was full-time. So I'm presuming that I probably took fifteen hours every semester and finished in four years.

GONZALES: So I read that you worked your way through college.

ELLIS: Correct.

GONZALES: Was it--I'm sure--was it a little difficult to balance your workload with--were you working full- or part-time?

ELLIS: I was working part-time and just on the weekends. So what I would do is go home every weekend and work at the--I worked at the Kroger Food Store and then come back during the week and go to school. Then, of course, summer--I didn't go to summer school, so I worked during the summers at various and sundry places.

GONZALES: Did you live in a dormitory on campus?

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: Was it with the Cadets?

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: Okay.

ELLIS: The infamous Davis Dorm. (Both laugh)

GONZALES: What was that like?

ELLIS: I can't say. I have to take the Fifth Amendment on that one. (laughs)

GONZALES:(laughs) Wasn't it plenty of shenanigans?

ELLIS: Let's just say that Davis Dorm was a very, very strong building. It's still standing today. (Gonzales laughs) And it would probably take a nuclear bomb to tear it down because it has seen a lot of activity.

GONZALES: So in addition to ROTC, what other campus activities did you engage in?

ELLIS: I think I was on the Student Council. I might've been in another club or two, but I think that's about it really. I can't think of anything else.

GONZALES: Did you participate in any campus traditions?

ELLIS: Campus traditions. I'm sure I did, but I don't remember what they were. And basically, for us that were members of the Sam Houston Rifles, that was a pretty full-time job for us because we practiced every evening after class for a 00:06:00couple of hours. And there were no fraternities at the college at that time, but if there was something as a fraternity, the Jodies were. And so we all lived over in the Davis Dorm together and of course, we did the competitions together and tried to tear the dorm down together unsuccessfully.

GONZALES: So what was a day in your life like then when you'd go to school? I mean, what was your schedule like as far as going to class and then doing work with the Cadets and things like that?

ELLIS: It was probably about the same as a day in the life as a student nowadays. I mean, classes started depending on what you signed up for at eight o'clock or nine o'clock or ten o'clock, and in between classes we were at the Student Center, you know, getting a coffee or chatting. And then if there was some class in the afternoon, we'd do that.

Our military stuff all took place usually in the afternoon and then, as I said, 00:07:00the Jodies were--we would have practice for a couple of hours every afternoon toward the end of the day, so that was kind of your typical day. We ate our meals at the Student Center. There was a place called Youngblood's Chicken--I'm sure it's not there anymore--but that was kind of like the hangout for everybody to go eat because the food was cheap and you got a lot of it. And then, you know, to the dorm and study and stuff like that at night.

GONZALES: So you were a Distinguished Military Graduate. How were you chosen for that honor?

ELLIS: I don't know. I'm sure there are qualifications--there were probably grades and how well you did in the military--in the corps--and stuff like that. What you wanted to do if you were going to make a career of the Army is become a Distinguished Military Graduate because then you got what was called a regular 00:08:00Army commission, which is a commission that is the equivalent of those that came out of West Point. So you were not a reserve officer and not as subject to being rifted out of the Army, so to speak.

GONZALES: So did you go anywhere else for additional military training upon graduating from Arlington State College?

ELLIS: Well, I was stationed immediately to the 82nd Airborne Division in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And so I went to Fort Benning, Georgia for jump school and the Basic Officer Training Course that you had, and then I think that was it for my training. And the 82nd at that time was actually in the Dominican Republic, and so when I finished that stuff, I was sent down to the Dominican Republic.

GONZALES: What were your job assignments when you got to the Dominican Republic?

ELLIS: The 82nd was there as a peacekeeping force. Allegedly, they had just 00:09:00deposed one of their dictators, and so they were about to have elections. And I think LBJ sent them down there just to make sure the elections went okay. I was a Second Lieutenant. We really didn't do a whole lot. We were just there if needed, and so, you know, you'd practice maneuvers and got to do a lot of jumping out of helicopters, which is a cool thing, so we got a lot of extra jumps that we wouldn't have got otherwise. But basically, just--sometimes we were in the city, sometimes we were out of the camp--out of the city, and just being there if they needed us.

GONZALES: What year was that?

ELLIS: 1965 and '66.

GONZALES: And after the Dominican Republic, were you deployed elsewhere?

ELLIS: Came back to the 82nd at Fort Bragg, stayed there until-- sometime in 00:10:00there I decided I didn't want to be in the Army anymore and was going to change my career. So when I let the Army know that, then after that I went to Vietnam for my last year in the Army.

GONZALES: If you don't mind me asking, what happened that made you question staying within the Army?

ELLIS: I loved the ROTC and I loved the camaraderie of the guys in the ROTC. What I got in the Army--just honestly, there's a lot of people in the Army that are Majors and Lieutenant Colonels and middle--I call them middle management--and if they were in private life, they couldn't exist because they're just not very competent. And a lot of those people were what we call lifers that stayed in even though they were Majors and Lieutenant Colonels, and I just kind of got discouraged about the people that were telling me what to do, you know. (laughs)

GONZALES: Yeah, it happens.

ELLIS: Right.

GONZALES: So when were you deployed to Vietnam?

ELLIS: '68 and '69.

GONZALES: And what were your assignments there?

ELLIS: I was actually sent to what's called MACV, which is the Military Assistance Command Vietnam. At that time it was just before the huge buildup started of American troops there, and we were assigned to the Vietnamese Army, Vietnamese political--and the folks that ran the counties and the cities and stuff like that to provide advice as to tactics and strategy, fighting the North Vietnamese, the Viet Cong, and also a lot of civil--civic affairs stuff: building schools, getting books in, pencils, you know, those kinds of things.

GONZALES: How did y'all do that? Like, as far as helping with the building of these? Where did the materials come from?

ELLIS: Yeah. I don't know for sure, but I'm sure that the United States furnished the materials. We had, of course, engineering units that could build stuff. I was still an infantry person, and so the main people that the mission that I had was giving advice to was somebody they called him a Dai-Uy, he's a captain, and he was the district commander, and so he had two jobs, one was the military, to take care of defending his county, whether the district was that he could or not, and the other was, he was the political guy. He was like the mayor of the city. And so you kind of go back-and-forth between talking about military stuff to talking about how to run your city, how to build a school, how to teach your 00:13:00kids, and stuff like that.

GONZALES: So when you went to the Dominican Republic, was that the first time you'd ever traveled outside of the U.S.?

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: And so did your time there at all prepare you for Vietnam?

ELLIS: No. Didn't have anything to do--two different things.

GONZALES: Completely different things?

ELLIS: Yeah. I mean, Dominican Republic was an island shared with Haiti. It's a very poor community, not as poor as Haiti. At that time, there were not all the resorts and vacation places there that are there now, and so it was basically like being in a very poor part of Mexico and, again, we weren't doing anything but just--we were there if they needed us, kind of thing.

Vietnam was an entirely different situation. I mean, the Dominican Republic was considered a short tour, meaning it was an overseas tour in a combat zone, but there was really no combat going on. Vietnam, of course, was a combat zone and 00:14:00there was combat going on. So it was an entirely different deal.

GONZALES: And your roles were completely different?

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: Did you see any combat while you were in Vietnam?

ELLIS: Yes and no. I was not with an American outfit, so I was not on the frontlines fighting the bad guys, so to speak. But if you're in Vietnam, you're subject to combat, and somebody's either shooting at you or sometimes you're shooting back or landmines and that kind of thing, but nowhere near the danger that the regular Army guys and the marines were having over there.

GONZALES: Do you have any memorable experiences while you were over there?

ELLIS: Memorable experiences. Sucking the eyes out a duck head at the Vietnamese family's home because you were the honored guest. That was kind of memorable, which is why I don't eat Vietnamese food anymore ever anywhere.

You know, I guess, I really enjoyed being an advisor to the Dai-Uy, the district 00:15:00chief, because it was kind of like you really felt like you were accomplishing something, you were in the community, and it was a small group, and so everybody got to know each other fairly well. There were several of us there, and so that was a neat experience, and you felt kind of like you were really getting something done.

The second half of my tour there--by then they'd kind of built up the American forces throughout the country, and the generals decided that we're going to go--we're going to send everybody down to the south part of South Vietnam, and we're going to wipe out the VC and the NVA and that community, and they just sent us all down there. And that's where quite honestly I really got turned off by the war because it was just--I mean, there were ten people to do the job of one, and it was the most inefficient organization I'd ever seen. I actually 00:16:00started writing my senator to try to tell him that they were making a mistake, but I don't think he listened. (Both laugh)

GONZALES: Did other soldiers share your same feelings about that?

ELLIS: I think a lot of them did. I mean, we were there to do a job, and the frustrating part about that section, that half of the tour, was it just--I was in a staff position, and there were just--we were doing a lot of planning and talking and things like that but you never really got to see anything done. And so you were kind of wondering: what the heck am I doing here? What are we accomplishing?

GONZALES: So I take it when your feelings or attitude toward being in the military before you went over to Vietnam--

ELLIS: Um-hmm.

GONZALES:--I take it they weren't--they didn't change while you were there?

ELLIS: No. I had decided I wanted to get out before I went over there and because I had that regular Army commission, once you try to resign your commission, then 00:17:00they can keep you for another year if they want to, and because the Vietnam War was going on, that's what they decided to do. So my decision had already been made. I certainly didn't volunteer to go there, but that was my duty and my responsibility, so I went.

GONZALES: It sounds like the Vietnamese did kind of welcome you into their homes while you were there. Was it just one family in particular?

ELLIS: No. It was the entire district or the community. The Vietnamese are very sweet and kind people. It was another reason that I realized that the war was really a waste. The people we dealt with could've cared less. They're very family-oriented, and so their concern was: do I have my little farm and my rice paddy and my water buffalo? And can I take care of my family? And they really 00:18:00didn't have a whole lot of what I would call strong political feelings one way or the other. They just wanted to be left alone and take care of their families, so they were nice. They were easy to get along with.

The only, I guess, the fearful thing is you did not know who the enemy was, and so you could be driving down the road and some little twelve-year-old kid was going to throw a hand grenade at you or something like that. But for the most part, they were very kind folks. I liked them.

GONZALES: So how did you stay in touch with your family while you were in Vietnam?

ELLIS: Writing letters. I look at the kids--they're not kids--but the soldiers nowadays from Afghanistan and they're all on Skype and computers and talking to their families every day or every other day and stuff like that, and of course that kind of technology just didn't exist at that time. So it was primarily writing letters. I don't think we even had--well, there were no cell phones. And 00:19:00so I don't know that we even had an opportunity--yeah, maybe every once in a blue moon, we could go somewhere and make a phone call home, but primarily it was letter writing.

GONZALES: Did the war affect your family at all or your being in Vietnam, did that affect them?

ELLIS: I don't think so. I don't think so. I was married at the time, but we didn't have any children. My wife was a schoolteacher. She came back to Dallas and stayed with her family and taught school, and so I don't think it was any kind of an adverse effect.

GONZALES: So did you marry prior?

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: Okay.

ELLIS: I married when I graduated from Arlington--UTA--Arlington State College back then, and so she went with me to Fort Bragg. When I went to the Dominican Republic, she stayed at Fort Bragg. She taught school there. And then went I went to Vietnam, she came back home.

GONZALES: I'm sure being over there was a very stressful situation. Were you able to have an outlet for stress or tension while you were there?

ELLIS: Every military command I know has a bar. (Both laugh) So there were plenty of bars. It really wasn't that stressful, I don't think, but, yeah, we actually had a house trailer that we--that was planted on the ground there, and we put sandbags all around it as far as protection was concerned. So we lived in that trailer and basically, we cooked meals in there. I'm sure we played football or whatever outside and that kind of thing. There wasn't any--you know, we didn't have any movies. We didn't have--if we had TV or radio, I don't remember it, so we just did a lot of reading, stuff like that.

GONZALES: How many of you were in the trailer?

ELLIS: I don't know. I'm going to say five to ten. Might've been more than one trailer too. Could've been two trailers or three together, I just don't remember that too well.

GONZALES: You said you read. Where were the books coming from? Were people shipping them or mailing them to you?

ELLIS: Well, I don't know that either, but I'm guessing (laughs) that they were either being mailed to us or--the military has a kind of a library--extensive library that they would bring around books and stuff like that, that you could either buy or lend out like from a library, so.

GONZALES: I had no idea they had mobile libraries.

ELLIS: Yeah. Well, I wouldn't call it a mobile library. I would call it one guy with a whole bunch of books. (laughs)

GONZALES: Works.

ELLIS: Right.

GONZALES: Were you awarded any medals or citations?

ELLIS: I received the Bronze Star for Meritorious Service. I received-- there's a campaign ribbon that you receive just for being in Vietnam. I think there 00:22:00might've been a Good Conduct Medal or something like that there too. But that's about it.

GONZALES: So other than the bar scene, reading, and playing football, was there any other entertainment or were you given leave at all where you could go travel?

ELLIS: We did spend a lot of time with the Vietnamese, so one of the things that we would do, we'd go to different families' homes and eat dinner, and that was kind of like when we came in, we were the honored guests, and so at that time I knew how to speak some Vietnamese. I don't know anything--I can't remember any of it now. But we could communicate with each other.

Everybody got two R and Rs while we were there. And so one time I met my wife in Hawaii--and each one was a week--and went to Hawaii for the week. And then the second one I did in Hong Kong. And went to Hong Kong, and had a bunch of suits 00:23:00made and the same bunch of brass ferns, shipped back to everybody in the United States. (laughs) Which I'm sure are worthless now. They may have been worthless then.

And then when you get back, you get a letter from the guy that made your suits in Hong Kong for at least twenty-five years. I don't know how they know where I am, but they track you down (laughs) and they send you a letter and say, "Do you need a new suit?"

GONZALES: So they were custom suits?

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: Wow!

ELLIS: That was the deal, and go to Hong Kong and get a custom suit made and I have no idea how much they cost, but they were certainly cheaper than suits in the United States, and so that was one of the things that everybody did was get four or five of those neat suits made.

GONZALES: Did you enjoy the cuisine there better than in Vietnam?

ELLIS: I don't remember. (Both laugh)

GONZALES: When you were in Hawaii, were you able to go to all the islands, or were you restricted--

ELLIS: I think we were at just the main island.

GONZALES: Okay, because I've heard of other people getting leave to Hawaii, and I didn't know if there was a certain area of Hawaii that was for the military.

ELLIS: I don't remember that there was a restriction. We were in a commercial hotel, a resort on the main island and we didn't try to go anywhere else that I can recall.

GONZALES: Do you remember any humorous or unusual events either in the Dominican Republic or in Vietnam?

ELLIS: I'm sure there were a bunch of them, but I don't remember any of them. There had to be. Life really for people that were in MACV was not that bad. You were always in a combat zone for sure, night-time people could be shooting at you and you might be shooting back. But someday you had no idea who you were shooting at or where they are. But for the most part, other than just, you know, being away from home and it being hot all this kind of stuff, it was not a bad deal.

GONZALES: So did you form any close relationships with people there? Or do you 00:25:00still, keep in touch with some of those soldiers?

ELLIS: I don't. I couldn't probably name--I mean, I can picture their faces, but I couldn't give you the names of the folks who I worked with or who they were or anything like that, and I haven't kept in contact with anybody from the service.

GONZALES: So did your service end when you returned from Vietnam?

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: And when was that?

ELLIS: '69.

GONZALES: And so do you recall the day your service ended? Did you do anything special?

ELLIS: Got the hell out of Dodge. It was April of '69, that's about all I can recall. I know we came back to San Francisco. I know I had to spend a day there turning stuff in and getting all the--signing papers and stuff like that, but that's about it. And I was out of there.

GONZALES: What did you do in the days and weeks after your return?

ELLIS: What did I do after I returned? Well, obviously, I had applied to law school at some time, probably while I was there. And I knew that I'd been 00:26:00accepted at SMU. I came back here. I'm sure I worked at the same grocery store that I worked at when I was at Arlington State College because that manager was the guy that I'd just worked for the whole time that I worked for Kroger's. Found a place to stay. Found a place at SMU--two-story house for ninety dollars a month.

GONZALES: Oh, wow!

ELLIS: I know. I just got ready for law school.

GONZALES: Were you going to law school on the GI Bill? Did that help out a lot?

ELLIS: It helped a lot. SMU's not very cheap, so I had the GI Bill. My wife at the time was school-teaching, and then I was also still working. I got a job at Yellow Freight and worked there some time during the nighttime hours or on the weekends. I still did some work for Kroger's and stuff like that.

GONZALES: So how was the transition from military to civilian life?

ELLIS: Easy. No problem for me.

GONZALES: So I've read you were admitted to practice before the U.S. Supreme Court. What was that experience like?

ELLIS: That's a good question because there's a lot of people that are admitted to practice before the United States Supreme Court that have never appeared before the United States Supreme Court, and I'm one of them. It's not a big deal. What you do is once you get your law license, then you fill out applications to be admitted to the Courts of Appeals and the United States Supreme Court, and as long as you are in good standing, then you are admitted to practice there. I have not ever practiced at the United States Supreme Court, but I can if I want to.

GONZALES: So when did you graduate from law school at SMU?

ELLIS: '71, December '71.

GONZALES: And you stayed here in the area?

ELLIS: Yeah.

GONZALES: Who did you work for?

ELLIS: Well, I went--going back to law school because of course, I felt like I 00:28:00was behind everybody else because I'd spent four years in the Army--I went and finished law school in two and a half years, graduated early. I was lucky and I got a job with a firm called Woodruff Kendall and Smith, which is a small firm in Dallas that did trial work, which is the same thing I do now. And that's what I've been doing ever since.

GONZALES: So I take it, you enjoy it.

ELLIS: I do.

GONZALES: Do you attend any military or Arlington State College reunions?

ELLIS: Very few. And it's not that I have anything against the reunions or reunions of any sort. I'm just not a guy that lives in the past, and so occasionally I come in here for the Hall of Honor ceremony and that reunion, and really, the only reason I do that is because a good friend of mine does it all 00:29:00the time and he's always trying to get me out here. So I do it occasionally.

GONZALES: So how would you say your military experience influenced your career as a lawyer if it did at all?

ELLIS: Well, I think the ROTC and the military had a great influence on my ability as a lawyer because of all the traits that you learn in the military: discipline, working hard, strategic and tactical thinking. I think that's important for a lawyer, especially a trial lawyer.

In the military, especially the Airborne, we did a lot of physical activity and there's no doubt that if it wasn't for doing the exercise and stuff like that--and I still do it today on a pretty regular basis--and if you're going to be a lawyer, you've got to be in shape and still relieve the stress of lawyering 00:30:00by working out, so that part. So I think the tools you learn in the military as a leader are the same tools that kind of take you--help you out a lot through life.

GONZALES: So there have been many changes to the campus since it was Arlington State College. How do you feel when you visit campus as an alumnus and see all the changes here?

ELLIS: Lost. (Both laugh) No, when I drove up and started looking around and got met and we started walking around, I'm looking around and saying, "I am so lost in this place because there's not a building here that I remember." When we had the Hall of Honor thing, which is over at the Student Center, then the Student Center I remember, the building across from it, what's Brazos Hall now that used to be Davis Dorm. But I mean, just driving in and seeing all the buildings on both sides of Cooper that were never here, it's just--I mean, the change is 00:31:00huge. Giant. (laughs) Really big.

GONZALES: Have you been to College Park District yet?

ELLIS: Nope. (laughs) But I've been asked that question, now, that's the second person that's asked me that, so I guess that's something I'm supposed to go to, isn't it? (laughs)

GONZALES: Well, I imagine so.

ELLIS: Right. I'm going to have to go now. Two people have asked if I've been.

GONZALES: But if you're going to catch a game or catch a basketball game.

ELLIS: Right.

GONZALES: So you were inducted into the UTA Hall of Honor this year.

ELLIS: Yes.

GONZALES: Can you describe what receiving that honor was like?

ELLIS: Well, I was honored, obviously. And as you look at the list of some of the people that have been in there, I was humbled to be on that same list. I guess my--I was a little bit surprised because I guess my idea of what the Hall of 00:32:00Honor was--it was to honor people that were being career military folks and like the General Lathams of the world and stayed in a long time and that kind of thing. So it was a neat experience that certainly was, and it was nice to come back and see some of the old guys from the ROTC days too, so I enjoyed it. Had fun.

GONZALES: So what advice would you give current cadets at UTA?

ELLIS: Get plenty of rest. Do what your mother tells you. (laughs) I think the advice would be: if the career in the service is what you want to do, go for it. I would never ever give up the fact that I did that. And I'm glad I did even though I didn't stay as a career soldier like I thought originally I was going to do. But I feel very strongly about service to our country and to our 00:33:00community, and so it was certainly for me a maturing experience, it was a good experience.

I don't have anything bad to say about it. I will say to the Cadets, you know, I guess if there's one piece of advice that I would give is that what you experience in ROTC and what you are about to experience when you get into the military on a full-time basis are two entirely different things. And so when you go in, you go in with an open mind and don't feel like that you necessarily have to pursue a career that you don't want to pursue if you get in and figure out, "Hey, this is not what I expected it would be." But that'd be the best advice I could give them.

GONZALES: Is there anything you would to contribute to the interview or anything I didn't ask?

ELLIS: Wow! Anything you didn't ask. I don't think so.

GONZALES: Okay. Nothing you would elaborate on?

ELLIS: I would--again, I go back to Arlington State College at the time was a wonderful place for me to go to because I didn't come from a rich family, and my mother couldn't afford to send me to school, and so if I was going to go to school it was going to be on my own dime. And so because this is a state school, it was inexpensive-- relatively inexpensive, because it was close, and at that time mainly a commuter school, it was good access for me to come here and live here, go back and work and things like that. And it had the Jodies, which I loved.

So it was a perfect deal for me and it was really, really a good experience as far as I was concerned. And it set me on the road. I think I got a great 00:35:00education here, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. We were Rebels then not Mavericks. (Both laugh)

GONZALES: All right. Well, I want to thank you. Mr. Ellis, for participating in our Project. You were very helpful and informative, and it was a pleasure talking with you today. And thank you for your service and contribution to the Maverick Veteran's Voices Project.

ELLIS: You're more than welcome.

GONZALES: Thank you.

ELLIS: Thank you for asking me to do it.

GONZALES: Sure.